Nashville News Blog

Fixed. Thanks.

I would join P-WOP in a heartbeat. As a parent, I am tired of not being asked to join Happy Hour cause apparently, once you give birth, all your coolness disappears and people assume all you are is a parent. But guess what!? I can go a whole 10 minutes without mentioning my fabulous daughter. No matter what road in life you choose, its hard. Deal.

I LOVE when people say they hate kids...as if they were just dropped on the Earth a grown person. Hate yourself all you want - my kids did nothing to you. I'm sure a lot of those jackasses smell worse than my kids anyway!

Seriously, butterfly? Your retort is "you smell"?

Uh...did you read the post? That was in response to the Northern Exposure quote.

[As for non-child friendly businesses. F*ck 'em.

My kid goes just about any place I go. If you don't want to provide a high chair, well, I guess you'll end up cleaning food from under the table.

To which I say, "Tough shit."]

Hey SHORT AND FAT, of course your kids go everywhere you go, you have no life except for your kids and I don't even need to know you to know that.

What do you do for a living by the way? Don't say parent, CAUSE BEING A PARENT ISN'T A JOB. You get paid for a job, and hugs and love don't pay bills. If it were a job, then I could quit my real job and just do my job of being a dog owner. Cause having an animal is a job right? How about a bird, that would be a great job.

Hey, did you catch the story about the airline that kicked a family off because their kid could not behave. That warmed my cold heart. It shows a growing trend in lack of tolerance for other peoples animals which has been a long time coming.

And don't worry, I'm sure that the waiter who is cleaning up after your dirty little animals didn't spit in your food for treating him like a servant. I'm sure he didn't though, because you come off as being really nice deep down. I think the "F*ck' em" line really sold me on you being you. Your kids are going to turn out WELL with that kind of attitude. Very, very, well.

Your right, the world owes you something for popping out another animal just like you. That's right, did you forget we are animals S.A.F.? Maybe having kids is still an instinct, probably not for you though. One that you couldn't control maybe? And yes I called your kid an animal, so unbuckle those Lane Bryants and call me every dirty name you can think of, which I assume would make up a small list.

And since the world owes you something, Harris Teeter has given you a special parking spot cause you have a kid. Right up front. Although your husband probably always parks in the back of the lot with the rest of us losers right? You do still have a husband right? Sorry, I shouldn't have assumed that. You don't have to be married to have sex, I forgot about that. Man am I a sinner or what?

Hey, when your 12 kids move away S.A.F., can I move in their room, you sound like lots of fun to live with.

FYI, you may want to teach your kids to eat their food instead of throwing it on the floor. Food costs to much to be wasted.

Do I seem bitter, it could be because your kids sat next to me in a restaurant the other night and screamed while I tried to eat my meal, ETC, ETC, ETC, ETC.....

Wow.......there seems to be a whole lot of bitterness on both sides of the fence. I have a kid, and while I love to talk about her, I try to respect the fact that other people (co-workers, for example) might not like to hear about her 24/7. And no, I don't take her everywhere - some restaurants were not DESIGNED for children - that's why they made places like Eat N Park (and you get a free cookie - it doesn't get much better than that). And for you childless by choice folks - I absolutely respect your choices too, but geez, try not to be so, well, hateful is the word that comes to mind. Ask for another table if someone annoying child is sitting next to you. Sheesh.

To be clear, my parents are amazing people. I have had a life filled with choices and love. I would hope that I could be the man and father that my father is. Bitter because of the actions of others, of course we all are about something. The kid thing is mine because I consider having a child anywhere in this world to be an honor and a responsibility. A responsibility so important that I think most people do not deserve it. You expect that your way of life is worth furthering, I realize that I am not ready for that ultimate responsibility. I am however probably far more well adjusted than most of you. I love someone, own my own company, have tons of close friends, a new home, almost no debt, and a family that has never shown me anything but understanding. These things are all true friends, I am lucky to be sure. I am not so f*cking arrogant that I think I should have a child just because I want one. The children only suck because their parents take them into public too early, or they are not loved, or they simply didn't have a chance considering the DNA at hand, Etc, Etc, Etc. I guess you must meet lots of great strangers and citizens at large, because I don't. But I do meet a lot of idiots with kids because they were following the good ole 2.5 kids plan. Scared of being alone, get married and have kids....don't feel like you have something to do, have a kid you shouldn't and turn him into a jerk to. It is easier to call me bitter, harder to admit most people shouldn't have kids because they don't deserve it. And being on the other end of this debate sucks because of the hatred put forth toward people who choose to not do something for the betterment of society and a child that may end up better off to have been born later or maybe never. I'm not religous either idiots, so let's here it for the none baby jesus, none children having, none egotistical, adult that decided the world was full enough. Hey breeders, how about adoption, but why do that when you can crank out your own. Lucky this world isn't filled with orphans or you might feel like a jerk for insisting on keeping your busted DNA in the pool.

Wow, "People Do Hate Your Kids" -- you sure do have a lot of hatred built up in that narrow little brain of yours.

Here's a suggestion for you; instead of ranting and raving for three long, rude and completely uncalled-for comments in response to S.A.F's off-hand comment, why don't you put that "passion" into something worthwhile? You obviously don't respect your parents (there's no way you could post like that and have any respect for ANY parents) and you obviously feel the need to make money and be patted on the back constantly to feel good about yourself....so instead of posting nasty comments here, why don't you take some of that "hard-earned" cash -- you know, the money that is WAY better than kisses and hugs -- and spend it on some counseling or self-help books? Chill out. You've got some self-esteem problems, which is pretty typical for bullies.

In any case, leave your nasty opinions to yourself. You don't have the right to attack someone in that way - and especially just because you don't want children.

I am however probably far more well adjusted than most of you. ...I am not so f*cking arrogant...

Uhm, no you're not and yes, you are.

I think People do hate your kids, while angry, has a very valid point. Some parents -- not all -- think that once they become parents their lifestyle does not have to change. If you are a parent, you're going to have to put off Margots for awhile... but that's ok, there is a Shoneys just down the road.

It only drives me crazy when I'm paying good money at a high-end place that is clearly not meant for tots (and yes, no high chairs, is, indeed, a good sign of that) when there is a screaming child right next to me... but I have no right to complain if it's a spot that caters to children.

That said, if I were at a bar, or some other spot that's completely inappropriate for kids and Short and Fat's brats were running around, I'd make sure smoke from my cigarette was blowing toward those childrens sweet, pink lungs and that every other word out of my mouth was "fuck." Or at least f*ck.

You sweet people. Don't you know these children-stinky or not—grow up to break your heart? Your best and worst DNA and your mate's best and worst DNA blend together, and you have no f**king idea what you will get for all the time and love and money—private schools, summer camps, sports, hours of reading, planning, family dinners, whatever—you pour into them. Good luck with your plans.

My children that you hate so much will be paying an unfair portion of your social security and medicaid. Muster up a little gratitude.

No mame they won't, I have planned for my retirement already and I plan on donating my social security check to others in need. So you are wrong, sorry. You also assume that program will exist then. I am 32, and I am not so sure it will be around in 40 years. And if your thinking were valid, then show me some repect, because I am probably paying for yours mame. But that has nothing to do with the topic put forth in this blog, but congrats for reaching out there with something.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, that is what is wonderful about living in the country we live in. If you don't want children don't have them....it is no ones business but your own.
My husband and I had two children and quit even though I would have loved to have more but I knew that to be financially responsible for those children we should quit. I am proud to say my children have always been well behaved in public. I started when they were young and told them if they misbehaved when we were out we would leave and I really did it...I get sick of people that threaten and don't follow through. Mine learned quick that I meant business. We have also left restaurants when we got inside and realized it wasn't for children. I love my kids (who are now high school and college age) but understand why some people don't want any.

So why is it not ok for people to want to be childfree? Some of us have different aspirations in life, and its ridiculous when parents act childish (you guys smell, I'm so glad you're not passing off your dna, you were a kid once) I've had people with children even defend my position of not having children. I have no problem with parents, but it's when bitter breeders snap at others, thereby telling their children that rudeness is ok that gets to be a problem.

I was thinking about that adoption thing, Mr. Money Bags...if we adopt children instead of 'squirting out our own' do we earn the right then to bring them in public, or do they need cages, too?

I don't remember anyone saying that people who don't want kids are bad. I think people who HATE kids and think they should banished and demeaned get too worked up and run their mouths so negatively it's hard to respond with much restraint. I mean, really, insulting KIDS? How low can you really go?

I'll be the first to admit that I see a lot of kids that need to be "controlled". But when you don't notice the 20 other kids who are acting right over the one kid throwing a fit ... through a narrow mind you perceive that to be the way every child is. I can understand not wanting to have kids - but where does all the hatred come from?

And you know, BitterMan...I AM raising kids that I didn't conceive. They are beatiful, well-mannered, compassionate and intelligent "animals". Which is exactly what you have shown you are not. I agree, it's probably better you don't have children of your own.
(PS - maybe whoever it was should get a better job, because my insurance WOULD pay for an employee to take time off to care for ANY family member.)

Butrfly, my anger toward the people we are discussing, it comes from people with kids telling me that I have a problem because I don't want kids. They seem to need everyone to agree with them or we are damaged goods some how. As if our strong desire not to has made their choice wrong. And lighten up about the animal /cage comments, they were to make small minded people mad, not to make you lose focus on the issue. And the money bags thing, that is the best you got. I wish I were as wealthy as you make me sound. I said I was lucky, happy, and doing well, not Rockafeller or Vanderbilt over here. But if you can't control your emotions and debate me, then give up and go play with your kids. But try and keep your control with them.

Now that made you mad didn't it?

By the way, thank you for adopting a child, that is a noble thing. You should be proud of that forever. Adoption not only helps kids who are alone find a place to call home, it helps society as a whole. Well done 4404, I mean that.

Now back to the name callin, AINT THAT RIGHT YOU MINI VAN DRIVING SOCCER MOM PTA GOING BREEDERS.

Did that make you laugh or mad again?

Hey Aghast, you are right we hate every one that is weak and we want nothing less than an unhealthy society. Thanks for listening to us, we appriciate it. Very nice over generalization my friend, very nice. Did Aghast just call me a Nazi, I think she did.

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ......

This is just ridiculous. I can't believe how nasty people are getting here. I have four children and I love kids, but I would never question anyone's reason for *not* having children, and I wouldn't think less of them for it. It just wouldn't occur to me to do that. Actually, I don't know many people with kids who would think that way--or at least I've never heard them discuss it. I would never assume someone is selfish because they choose not to have children. Why would anyone assume all people who do have children are inconsiderate and raising a bunch of brats? Almost every time we take our kids somewhere we are complimented for their behavior. I see a lot of other well-behaved children along with those who aren't well-behaved. As someone said, it is not so much the child's fault as the parent's failure to teach them--at least to a certain age. And I don't have a cute little nickname for people who choose not to have children, so I really resent the term "breeder". I agree with whoever said that there needs to be respect on both sides.

Just like not all parents constantly ask CF people when/where/why/how they will be having children, not all CF people hate children. It would, therefore, be nice to get some useful information out of this blog topic. I feel as though As Seen Elsewhere's list was a great representation of what are unfair assumptions/inappropriate questions to ask of people with no children and I would like to hear from the other side what we can do to hold up our end of the "let's make for some peaceful child(ren)/no child(ren) encounters." Would any of the parents contributing to this firestorm be willing to take the route that "As Seen Elsewhere" did and give us CFs a comprehensive and helpful list of things we should be cognizant of when talking to people with children? Recommendations here, not accusations, would be great.

I have to say, I could care less what someone else chooses to do. I am the mother of two, but wouldn't say I love kids. I love my own, and it's not that I dislike other children... b ut I do dislike a lot of parents. I would join PWHOP in a heartbeat...but none of us may like each other. What I was thinking about most when I read everyones' comments was the description of children they do hate or dislike. It reminds me an awful lot of some adults. And not all are very young. I've had couples who are being loud and obnoxious next to me when I'm trying to enjoy my meal. I've experienced cleaning up tables with the most disgusting items on the floor from men who had to be in their 30's and 40's. I've been extremely angry that I couldn't enjoy a movie because of some loud mouth who feels he or she has to repeat every funny line said....
Can older parents please come and reprimand your idiot adult children?

Wow, it is shame that some people hold so much hatred towards children. True, you don't have to love my children, but at least treat them with a little respect....the same respect you want them to display to you. You have to give it to recieve it. I totally respect each persons decision to remain childless. But it is when they start calling them spawns and animals and such that gets to me. That means you were a spawn and animal once too, right??? I mean, I have not seen a full grown adult born to parents. Luckily my CF friends show respect to thier friends with children. It's a personal decision. The same way you want to be respected for being CF we parents want to be respected for chosing to parent, whether it be from our own DNA or not.

Going to get more popcorn, be right back.

Twelve Things Parents and Wannabe Parents Can Do to Better Get Along with the Childfree:

12) Banish the phrases "You'll change your mind!" "It's different when they're your own!" "I used to think like you, but now I have X number of children!" and "As a parent, I [insert opinion here]" from your vocabulary. Read a Breeder Bingo card and just don't use the bingos, despite the temptation. Ever.

11) Stop assuming that your parental status makes you somehow more authentic, mature, or intelligent than your unchilded peers. That unchilded teacher has a PhD and you have a kid. That means she knows more about education than you do, so get over it.

10) Stop allowing your kids to behave in a disruptive manner in public. The CF couple over there is paying for their dinner the same as you are, and they're just as entitled to a nice night out as you. Everybody else in that theatre paid for a ticket too, and they don't want to listen to your kid's wailing. Teach your kids out-in-public manners, or if they're too young to behave, leave 'em home with a sitter.

9) Stop insisting that "family friendly" work policies ONLY applies to parents with children. I have a disabled brother who I'm helping to support ֠why can't I take family leave to help take care of him? Acknowledge the fact that other people have families who depend on them too, even if their dependents are not their minor children.

8) Your religion may prohibit birth control and say that children are mandatory ֠but in all brutal honesty, that means NOTHING to me. I am not a member of your religion and I do not have to be in any way affected by its rules. This is a free country with no mandated state religion, so you must acknowledge that I can disregard the rules of any religion at will.

7) Stop asking married people "How many kids to you have?" and start asking "Do you have kids?" If the answer is no, acknowledge it and move on. You are not entitled to an explanation as to why that married couple doesn't have kids, so don't expect one.

6) Stop assuming that all CF people have unlimited spare time and money because we don't have children. Also, stop assuming that we all want to use that imaginary unlimited spare time and money babysitting and buying presents for your kids.

5) Stop using your kids as an excuse for your own bad behavior. NEVER cut to the front of the line with the excuse that your kids are waiting for you at home. Being a parent does not mean that you get an automatic pass on good manners or civil behavior. If you've ever played the Parent Card to get your way, stop it now.

4) Knock it off with the knee-jerk hostile reaction to anything that might harm "the children" in some nebulous way. Remember the angry mob that attacked a pediatrician's home because they mistook "pediatrician" for "pedophile." If someone's trying to get you riled up "for the children" check out that instigators' agenda before you start acting like an angry lemming.

3) STOP trying to date professed CF people thinking "I'll change his/her mind," or "I'm so cute, she's GOTTA want my baby eventually," or "I'll just go off the Pill without his knowledge, then he'll want to be a parent!" or "My kids are so cute, s/he'll fall in love with them." Just as no woman is sexy enough to "convert" a gay man, I can't think of any guy who makes me want to get my tubal reversed. If your date says, I don't want kids EVER, believe him/her and move on.

2) Stop flipping out if groups of like-minded CF people put up support boards on the Internet. There are support boards for all kinds of demographics: people with specific diseases, people with specific interests, gay men, lesbians, adoptees, married people, divorced people, people of certain races, of certain religions, of various political groups, and, of course, for people with children. The existence of boards where people who don't have and don't want children can congregate does not hurt ANYONE. We're just talking to each other, not plotting to blow up daycares. Get over it.

1) STOP STOP STOP imagining that you get a vote as far as anyone else's reproductive status! When you urge someone else to have a child, you have no idea what his or her family life was like, what his/her medical history is like, or what that child will do to his or her life. Yes, your kids might be great, but there's absolutely no guarantee that the other person's would be as well. All you accomplish by pestering someone else to have kids (especially when s/he openly professes that s/he doesn't want any) is making a nuisance of yourself. CF people have enough opportunities to feel invalidated and misunderstood in this world without you adding to it.

So there you have it. Follow the above guidelines, and you'll be surprised at how many Parent, Not Breeder RAVES you'll get from your CF friends.

Parents were once child-free.

Child-free people have never been parents.

Child-free people can't ever know if parents are telling the truth when they say, "I used to feel that way UNTIL I HAD MY OWN, but now ____________."

So if childfree people are really stopping themselves from having kids because their terrified of missing out on some sleep, or some martinis, I feel sort of bad for them. They're really missing out.

As Queen of Suburbia said - their loss.

But if childfree people are doing it because they know they'd have children and become miserable people full of bitterness and ugly rage, they're doing us all a favor.

"So if childfree people are really stopping themselves from having kids because their terrified of missing out on some sleep, or some martinis, I feel sort of bad for them. They're really missing out.

As Queen of Suburbia said - their loss.

But if childfree people are doing it because they know they'd have children and become miserable people full of bitterness and ugly rage, they're doing us all a favor."

this is the point where you need to read the #1 reason on that list. really. please.

Actually, el sid...the number one antagonist on this blog is going by the psuedonym "people do hate your kids" and if I weren't at work, I would go through and pick out all the HATEFUL things they said. Not to mention the MySpace Forum that is going OFF about this article ...they had a lot of hateful things to say, too.
And let me tell you that not one person on this blog ever said anything bad about people not having kids or even WANTING to have kids. The issue is that people are HATEFUL to them. After checking out a few of the people participating over in that forum, I don't feel any sympathy at all for the "CF Movement" - in fact, I think much worse of the people involved. If you are really a group that "just wants to exist" then maybe your top spokespeople shouldn't have "SUPPORT ABORTION" "KILL THE BASTARDS" signs all over. Really, it looks like they are preparing for genocide, not trying to "simply exist."

To get back to the original post:

I used to moderate the Nashville Child-Free Meetup group Lindsay linked to above. We had a reasonably sized group of great people showing up once a month, but after a while I stepped down as moderator because I just didn't see the point. We'd had many variations on the "why I don't want kids" discussion, and there didn't seem to be anywhere else to go after that.

I'm happy to see that the movement itself is getting media attention, though: it's important that people who haven't decided yet whether to have kids get to see examples of people who have chosen not to have kids, as well as examples of those who do. We're an overpopulated planet -- not everyone needs to be a parent. It's far better for children if those who do become parents are doing so because they know they really want to, not just because society says they should.

el sid - how quaint....That was YOUR myspace page that said that. Along with something about drinking the blood of newborn infants and serving satan?

Wow...real respectable source for the "Nice, Just Wanna Be Us CF Movement". So...by child-free, you mean Kill All Children, right, as in no children in the world? (I know that not everyone in the CFM wants to kill kids, but ) You are the one coming on here saying "pretty please don't hate us we just don't want our own kids, we don't hate yours"... then on another website, you have pictures saying that all babies should be aborted? I do hate you for that. That makes me think you are a sick person if you think babies should be killed so you can drink their blood. Again, you don't give your so-called "movement" any credibility.

see what i mean? right into the name-calling. didn't listen to what i said.

yeah, i have jokes up about killing babies and drinking their blood. ha ha, i have a morbid sense of humor, sorry. i make the same sorts of jokes about killing people, too. but it's just me being funny (well funny to me; obviously we dont' share the same sense of humor.) i don't actually worship satan or drink the blood of infants. sorry to disappoint you.

and you hate me? sorry again. i don't hate you. and i repeat: we really don't hate your kids. why? because we don't KNOW your kids. we don't know you. why would i bother wasting my hate on someone i don't know? you tell me, butterfly, since you can obviously do that.

and then you decide to share my myspace profile with everyone so they can get even more offended. there's a reason i didn't link it. you have nothing better to do with your life than hunt me down and point out my hypocrisy? don't you have...oh, i don't know, some kids to feed?

i love kids. i spent half my life working with kids. my nephews are the most beautiful little men on the planet, and a hug from them is really worth more than a gazillion dollars to me. i think the heart of this misunderstanding is that you don't "get" us, and we don't "get" you. immediatley, we judge each other. immediatley, we call each other breeders and freaks. well, some of us are freaks. some of you are breeders. try not to take all this so personally... i sure don't. life's too damn short.

The only names I called you are names that you go by at myspace. I actually didn't "HUNT YOU DOWN"...someone else found your little forum that you've devoted to just how much you hate us...oops, i mean our kids. YOU guys are the ones throwing the hate around...and YES I HATE ANYONE WHO THINKS IT'S FUNNY FOR BABIES TO DIE. It doesn't really waste my time, but maybe someone should call the authorities..make sure you dont' have any dead kids in your basement? Yes, obviously we do have different senses of humor.
Also you worked with kids? And you think its funny to say they should die? THANK GOD employers now check myspace pages, because I wouldn't want you around my kids anymore than you want to be around them - scratch that - MORE than!

I have some responses to the comments here but they turned far too lengthy to post here so come visit my blog "People do hate your children" if you care to read.

Have a great day everyone. It's Monday again...

http://mommas-world.blogspot.com/2007/03/have-you-ever-heard-of-child-free.html

"What exactly are we supposed to do with them? Leave them at home in a cage with some food and water and a blankie?"

Nope. You go to that super secret file of young persons willing to accept money to sit with your offspring for a few hours while you and those around you enjoy a quiet meal.

There's public and then there's public. I've had more than one meal ruined when parents with no respect for other patrons refuse to control or remove their children. I'm old enough to remember when people actually taught their children how to act.

OTOH, if I visit a park or other place where children can be expected to "act like children", I know what I'm getting into and have no cause to complain.

This is the biggest waste of time i have ever seen. So you have kids and are glad you did OR you have kids and wish you didn't, OR you don't have kids and are glad you don't, OR you don't have kids and wish you did. I've been in all four of those situations. I was married for 8 years before we adopted our daughter (I was 36 so I lived without children as a working adult for a significant amout of time). There were DEFINITELY good things about not having kids and there are JUST AS MANY good things about having kids. Have 'em if you want 'em, don't if you don't. Who cares and if who does care then why should they?

Oh, boo hoo hoo...some people have had a meal ruined from the tears and cries of a newborn.

I am thrilled that the "nasty" child-frees do not have children - really, please don't BREED. I am also frightened that people like yourselves are sharing the same air as my family. The hatred you obviously feel for both parents and kids either stems from envy (oh, I know, you're probably gasping for air at such a thought...but I bet it's true for a lot of you) or just a maniacal state of mind.

That's not to say that all child-free feel this way, but the ones who jumped on here to insult parents in their special ways (but wanting us to "listen!" to them) do. And, with websites such as yours, don't be surprised if you are the prime suspect when a child goes missing and is murdered.

I even tried to make it easy, and yet the stupidity continues. I DO NOT belong to CF for an obvious reason. I HAVE A CHILD. But you do not see me threatening to call the cops for something someone says, like some damned Nazi. I came here to pick a fight with butrfly for having the bad taste to post my friends URL in the hopes of driving negative traffic to her site. This is an act worthy of a schoolyard bully, and should not be tolerated. You notice that as soon as someone stands up to her and calls her out, just like the bully, she backs down, trying to play it off as below her. I called you semi-literate, butrfly, because you cannot grasp the scope of what is being said, and yet you continue to prove me right!

Here is my blog link

http://blog.myspace.com/scitzz

See how the asshats just keep crawling out of the woodwork.

(Note: I am sorry for the typos and grammar issues in this comment. The little typing window is sooooo tiny that I can only see a few words at a time.)

As far back as I can remember (very young childhood), I have not wanted to procreate. I always thought it would be amazing to adopt when I "grew up." Now, I'm all grown up (age 26, in an amazing marriage for 7 years), and I am strongly considering remaining CF.

We are not selfish. We are not irresponsible. We are not mean or angry. We do not dislike children.

We have a beautiful goddaughter and a precious nephew we adore.

But we are often judged for not having children already. It gets worse when people realize we're probably not going to. It hurts my feelings when someone with kids tells me how much more meaningful their life became once they had children, implying that my life has no meaning. But deep down, I understand. There are things that give my life meaning that probably would not do the same for them. Not everyone ticks to the same second hand.

Vehicles, employment benefits, advertisements, church groups, so many things cater to parents. I appreciate that because parents have many needs that must be addressed. But for example, I can't listen to a talk about how to be a better person without hearing about paying more attention to my kids. Now and then, it rubs me the wrong way, but I have to remember that the majority of folks listening DO have kids, and they need to hear that just as much as I need to hear something else.

Childhood should be a time when little people could grow and learn about who they were and what it meant to be a decent person with ideas and feelings of their own without being threatened by the big world out there, so that when they arrived at the threshold of the unknown, they had something to draw from. They learned respect for themselves and others, as well as how to think and make decisions. Many people who have children aren't ready to provide that. I don't want to be one of them.

More power to you parents who truly do the best you can with your children. I respect you.

I ask for your respect as well. I am not less than you. I am not presuming to be more than you. I am simply not cut out to be a mom, just as most of you are not cut out to deal with some of the health conditions and lifestyle issues that I contend with.

To both "sides" of this debate: To hell with blanket statements that generalize and stereotype other people. I doubt anyone here could truly say that everyone is cut out to spend their lives pursuing the same goals as everyone else. We'd all be miserable if we did that.

Trying not to be one of the condescending "breeders" here...

Fencesitter - you asked if there's a difference between hugging your own child, and hugging another child in your world. Yeah, there really, really is. I have four children. Three, I did not give birth to, but chose to parent. One, I gave birth to, after an unplanned pregnancy. Prior to the pregnancy? I was one of the "I NEVER want to have kids" people. But having children (for most of us) does change you. Having my daughter made me do a 180 in a life that had little direction prior to her. Do I love her more than my stepchildren? I would honestly have to say I love her differently. Not more or less...but differently. My stepchildren take a lot more skill and patience to raise, due to issues with their mother. My daughter I had from day one, and she's always been a very easy child. So...not more or less...just different.

As to the argument that some children are not fit for public release - I can't argue against that. But perhaps one thing that DOES make parents different is that they learn (for the most part) to be more tolerant and patient. I will choose to sit next to a mother and baby on a flight, because I know the baby will most likely cry, and that it won't bother me like it would some others. Granted, even I get annoyed with parents of toddlers who can't keep them in line, or with my nephew who can't seem to sit in his seat throughout a meal in a restaurant. But really - does a fussy or messy child REALLY ruin your meal? Or do you just need to build up a little tolerance?

I'm happy to say, my children know what's expected of them in public, and behave accordingly...this despite one having ADD and emotional problems, and one having ADHD. Again, it comes down to having skill and dedication as a parent. Some people don't have that, and their children are evidence of that. Some people don't have that, and choose not to have children. I can't fault anyone for that.

But I can fault people for generalizations. I can fault people for not having patience. I can fault people for choosing to attack others rather than making sound arguments.

Leave it alone. Because if it comes down to it, everyone plays the "freedom of speech" rule. And God knows I don't want to interupt their spewing. You're not a hero just because you're a parent. And you're not dead because of it either. Just like everyone else we all have lives, and it's up to us on how we choose to live them. I am a parent myself, but I don't care too much about what everyone thinks about it either. All I know is we're all capable of being stupid. And it takes a special breed to pull together a group for a lame reason and inflict it's dumbass on the world. It's just a group. Why they need a support group? I don't have a clue. It makes them feel better to get together and complain about kids. etc. I thought that was what chat rooms were for. At least then no one knew who you were in person.

Holy scheisse, aren't we intruding into things that are none of our bidness nohow? I have two kids but if you don't want any, that's fine with me. What? You hate screaming rotten kids in public? Me, too. Gross. Mine were taught at a very early age how nice people behaved in public and if ever they deviated from that they were sorry, very very sorry. No, we didn't hit them. I wonder if a lot of this bitterness spewing all over my monitor would be alleviated if all parents required proper public behavior from their kids? Mine weren't perfect but they sure knew how they were required to behave out in public. I love kids; I'm a nurturing child-adoring Mama-type person, but I've encountered some gems out in public that I'd really have liked to etherize for the good of mankind in general.

Let's all teach our kids how to behave and require that behavior. Let's all not take our kids to places where the temptations to grab and cry are right there at eye-level. (That would keep me out of some stores, even at my age.) The fact is, not all public places are child-friendly, nor should they be. When my kids were small, the occasional venture to a place that didn't have kids in it was like heaven.

And hey. If you don't want to have kids, the reasons are none of my business. And if you want to rat on my kids for public misbehavior, I'd appreciate it. I loathe misbehaving kids and I loathe parents who allow it even more.

That being said, could I borrow somebody's kids this weekend? Mine grew up and moved out, and I've never quite recovered. Bring them over, and go out and have a good time, child-free.

Word of warning, though: their only two choices for meals will be "take it or leave it." Hungry kids will eat what you put before them. And if they throw a fit, I'll turn into Annie Sullivan.

If not for her, nobody would ever have heard of Helen Keller. And you all know what kind of methods SHE resorted to.

They worked, too.

Now, let's all resolve to be nice. Isn't that how adults are supposed to be, even when it's insincere?

WOW.
Damn people, calm down. If my kid ever bothers you that much, change tables. I mean you are the one who is bothered. If I don't like your smoke, conversation, face, etc. I'll move! Is is really worth getting all worked up over and ruining your pricey meal. Try to have a good time regardless of the small situation. Or try some happy pills and get the fuck over it.

Things could be way worse than changing tables. And I agree that if a restaurant like Jacksons doesn't have Highchairs, they are asking for a salad bar under my table. Not b/c my kid throws his food but b/c only 3 out of 5 bites actually makes it into a 2 year olds mouth. The benefits of a highchair tray. Plus, Jacksons is a mostly outdoor restaurant in a very family friendly area so....

And being a mom is a job. Actually, it is 5 jobs combined. And you don't get off at 5 or have YOUR weekend without your job. But it is just as rewarding. I consider my job to be just as good as a raise or promotion. I can see how my hard work is progressing everyday. When you teach your dog (or bird) to eat with a fork, say please and thank you, use a crapper and wipe, dress themself, spell, count, laugh and love then yes, I might consider that a job. Shit, I'd hire you!

I have two kids and am currently pregnant with twins. We are the only ones in our social group with kids. We bring them to some functions and leave them with a sitter when we can for others. Kids are a fact of life. If no one had them then the human race would disappear. We take them places that are kid friendly and either don't go or wait till we have a sitter for places that aren't. I always clean up after my kids (including the floor if need be) Kids no matter how wonderfully they are parented are not always good-and the misbehaving is usually in public. Sometimes you can fix it, sometimes you can leave, but sometimes you need the people around you to be understanding for 10 minutes out of their lives and deal with crying, or worse screaming. It's a very crowded world and unless you plan on moving to a deserted island you are going to have to deal with things that bug you from time to time. I think it's perfectly fine for people to not want kids-some people should not have them. And I do agree that some people who do have them maybe shouldn't. The big thing is to remember to be tolerant. Everyone will find themselves in a situation at least once or twice when the tolerance of strangers will go a long way.

Mommy Blogger = Mommy Breeder

Mommy Blogger = Mommy Breeder

Thank you, Captian Obvious!! And what will your next trick be???

AJ

That's just stupid. Just because I'm in an online community about something doesn't mean I define my life around it. I mean really, think about it for a second.

Being CF is not the point of my existence. It's a part of my existence that I like to talk about sometimes.

Like I said get over it.

"NOBODY CARES IF YOU HAVE BABIES OR NOT"

Actually, pleanty of people do, and they harass many CF'ers about it.

If you want to start a group about not being Asian, have at it. For all I know you have good reasons for it. Like mabey you live in an Asian country and would like to meet other non-Asians in the same situation. I'm certainly not going to pass judgement because you want the group. It's not my business.

The Mommy Blogger = Mommy Breeder was because I made a mistake. She signed as Mommy Breeder and I accidentally changed it to Mommy Blogger. Clearly I used internet shorthand you're not familiar with.

So, "John", do you work at the Scene, or do you just wait for someone to comment so you can tell them that they are obnoxious? I think YOU are obnoxious.

Hmmm...even John Galt had children...

Ahh..I guess that's the problem with being semi-anonymous...

Little Cry BABIES pretend to be you and make CHILDISH remarks.

No wonder ya'll don't have kids...you never fully developed up there in your wittle bwains, did you...poor things!

How dare you people act so childish.

My kids are better than you guys.

Now I'm off to spend several hours flaming people since I'm such a lousy mother.

WOW...Imagine...if the parents of all those people "who don't want kids" did not have kids, this whole conversation would not be happening!

"I'm sure too. That still doesn't change the fact that they're are millions of people who take issue with it and are vocal about it. And it certainly doesn't account for the people who don't take issue with it but still feel the need to try and change our minds."

Ashley, I agree, it is wrong if someone who has kids tries to change your mind about not wanting them. My oldest sister has had weirdo experiences with this too, and has really had to convince some people that she enjoys Christmas just fine, even though she doesn't have kids. However, she is a good aunt to my child and our other sisters' child as well.

I'll tell you, though, there's pressure for us parents, too! I am only having one child, and you cannot BELIEVE the flack I get about not giving my son a sibling! Even, most recently, from my own doctor! I'm switching doctors as a result of her dumb comments, actually! People don't have a right to judge anyone for their life choices.

However, I will say, I don't like people assuming my son is an asshole just 'cause he's a kid! He might be jerky somedays, other days he's the best! He's a person, and just like any ADULT I know, he has his good days and bad. He is defenseless, and I have to act as his advocate in this often times scary world.

I think this is why some parents get so up-in-arms about people who say they hate kids. They feel the need to protect their children, just like anyone who doesn't have kids, but has a spouse or S/O, they would feel the need to advocate for that person they love if that person came under unnecessary attack. I know this is a tangent, and I'm sorry, but I had to speak up just once. Now, to everyone's delight, I'm through! Have a good weekend!

Happygirl,

"I'll tell you, though, there's pressure for us parents, too! I am only having one child, and you cannot BELIEVE the flack I get about not giving my son a sibling! Even, most recently, from my own doctor! I'm switching doctors as a result of her dumb comments, actually! People don't have a right to judge anyone for their life choices."

I have heard the horror stories about this and it is ridiculous. They say having one child will make him/her selfish. To me that assumes the parent will fail at teaching their child to be selfless and generous and it's an insult.

"However, I will say, I don't like people assuming my son is an asshole just 'cause he's a kid! He might be jerky somedays, other days he's the best! He's a person, and just like any ADULT I know, he has his good days and bad. He is defenseless, and I have to act as his advocate in this often times scary world."

Adults can definitely be just as annoying as kids. Sometimes I think people make snap judgements based on their own experiences with kids. And sometimes people who have just found the online CF communities go a little overboard for awhile and then calm down.

"I'll tell you, though, there's pressure for us parents, too! I am only having one child, and you cannot BELIEVE the flack I get about not giving my son a sibling! Even, most recently, from my own doctor! I'm switching doctors as a result of her dumb comments, actually! People don't have a right to judge anyone for their life choices."

I have always maintained that the next companion to No Kidding will be a parents of only children club. I have compared notes with my friends who have one child, and the social pressures they face do sound similar.

My husband is an only child, and he is the best person I know! According to the psych studies I have read, it can make a child turn out selfish, or it can make a child uncannily mature. It does have an effect, but it can go either way, and depends largely on how you raise your child.

There are absolute disasters either way. A few of my friends are brilliant people with special needs siblings, and although they are now successful, they spent many years floundering before finding their niche because their parents could not give them the kind of support they needed.